Packages as an accessory? - D-Tools Forum

10-03-2007, 07:56 PM

Similar to another question asked, but why can't we have a PACKAGE as an accessory to an item? For example:

We put together a "CAT5E" drop package which consists of 125' of wire, jacks, wall plates etc... basically it's made up of 5 sku's. I now want to be able to add that to a bunch of items like in wall touch screens etc... that we sell. I was able to do that with (close your eyes) Bid Magic AV, but can't do it with D-Tools??? Instead, for 20+ different sku's I have to keep adding all 5 sub-parts in... a REAL PAIN IN THE A$$.

I'm unaware of any work arounds either - are there any???

Thanks!
Shawn

10-09-2007, 10:25 PM

Am I the only one that thinks this would be helpful?

Jack Frost · 01-16-2008, 04:53 AM

I'm for flexibility in any way shape or form I can get it. Restrictions most always make things harder.

That said, I wonder if packages as an accessory would even be needed if I could just nest accessories (as has been discussed before).

I think that not being able to nest accessories forces us to overly rely on/use packages (almost like packages have become the workaround to not being able to nest accessories) but that's just my 2c.

J.

01-16-2008, 02:37 PM

How would you suggest accomplishing me example above (for a network drop)??? If I have various touch screens and other pieces that all need this drop - I don't want to have to put 5-10 parts in an accessory and repeat it each time. That's why I think packages as accessories comes in handy - but I'm open to other ideas.

Jack Frost · 07-20-2008, 08:08 PM

Hey Shawn,

Somehow I didn't get notified of your reply.

I thought about the comments you made and tried to think it all the way through and I'll say that packages as accessories does make sense some sense but your example can be accomplished as nested accessories as well.

i.e. I've already created a plate or drop and accessorized it w/ the appropriate rough wire (data, power and coax..) and term jacks (quickports or whatever), then add that drop/plate as an accesory to the touch panel. A similar if not same result is achieved.
I suppose the differences are mainly in how the reporting engine distinguishes between packages or accessories and therefore how the reports pan out.

In my mind, package implies either the whole of a room or the whole of a system/sub-system. Any single product that comes w/ or requires other products in order to be used/made is accessorized.
I don't think a wallplate is a 'big' enough entity to be a package. It's an item w/ accessories (actually an item built out of accessories). That's how, to me, it looks like it should be.

In the end I think both packages as accessories and accessories to accessories are needed to simplify managing our DBs and to mimic the way we work in reality. We create many workarounds in the software and DB structure to accommodate the way we work in the real world and it's now high time the software morphed to accommodate us.

D-tools, are you listening?

07-20-2008, 09:04 PM

THANK YOU! Even after a year - I still miss being able to do things like this. For example - this past year alone, we changed what we constitute a "HD TV Drop" - the wires in it, etc... I had to go through sooooo many parts to make the changes - it was a REAL PAIN... instead, I wished I could have changed the "package: HD TV DROP" and it would have populated to all the parts I added it to. Sigh... I don't think D-Tools is hearing me on this one.

**Kevin Mikelonis** · 07-20-2008, 11:02 PM

The example cited makes sense, however, the actual database structure behind the scenes of MMPD requires a lot of rework that would affect existing users in a biig way to acheive packages as accessories bit.

Shawns rework of the HD Drop would have been a step process if the HD wiring drop were a Wiring Package and not a series of accessories tied to every Display Device in the database.

Our package mantra is:

Modular Assemblies that are used repeatedly which follow the Construction Process.

In general, we find that in accessorization, tying Trim Phase Products to Finsh Products and tyiing Rough-in Phase Products to Trim Phase Products holds up well in database management, proposal reporting, and proposal filtering by phase.

I do agree that some more flexibility in packages would be useful, but no matter what, there will need to be certain rules to follow and be consistent with in any database to keep it manageble and learnable.

PeaceLoveAndHappiness

Jack Frost · 07-22-2008, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Kevin Mikelonis

The example cited makes sense, however, the actual database structure behind the scenes of MMPD requires a lot of rework that would affect existing users in a biig way to acheive packages as accessories bit.

Not sure I follow your intent on this Kevin.. Are you saying that the rework is SO extensive that we should forget about seeing this happen in 5.x and that IF we see it in v6 we would lose backward compatibility? Or are you saying it's beyond the scope of d-tools to even do this?(or are you saying completely something else...)?
Please clarify.

Quote:

Shawns rework of the HD Drop would have been a step process if the HD wiring drop were a Wiring Package and not a series of accessories tied to every Display Device in the database.

Perhaps this is true but his process of *using* that HD drop in his daily work activities has the effect that he needs to * deliberately and consciously* add that HD drop w/ every product (Display Device or otherwise) that needs it and track it as such (i.e. Parentless) throughout the project.
This can be prone to being forgotten (esp. i.e. if you are training someone / have someone new working / haven't had much sleep), editing/accidental deletion (see above) and it's just an add'l work/thought burden that I'd prefer or even expect my multi-thousand dollar software investment did for me.

Insult to injury is that apparently this Bid Magic (which looks like an under $1k piece of software afaics) can do this today while for d-tools it doesn't appear to even be on the horizon.
[/quote]

Quote:

Our package mantra is:

Modular Assemblies that are used repeatedly which follow the Construction Process.

Would you be so kind as to elaborate?
I'm sure any student of your philosophy 'gets it' but I'm not sure I followed that all the way thru

Quote:

In general, we find that in accessorization, tying Trim Phase Products to Finsh Products and tyiing Rough-in Phase Products to Trim Phase Products holds up well in database management, proposal reporting, and proposal filtering by phase.

it *appears* that you're indicating that consecutive phases seem to work well (earlier phase as acc. to succeeding phase).
Does this imply that if the phases are not consecutive that it will not work well? (just seeking clarification of your statement) What are the pitfalls?

Quote:

I do agree that some more flexibility in packages would be useful, but no matter what, there will need to be certain rules to follow and be consistent with in any database to keep it manageble and learnable.

I agree with you here. However where we might diverge is that I'd want/expect those "rules" to be imposed by me/my business processes/etc. and not by artificial constraints from the underlying database I'm using.
That's akin to making a one-size-fits-all shoe. It doesn't work too well. Better is to make a shoe that can be adjusted and molded to fit the individual.

Imposing my own constraints in my DB by modeling my business is much preferable to having my DB model impose constraints on my business. I think the number and volume of 'comments' in these forums on 'workarounds' and 'kludges' to make the software do what we want implies that I might not be alone in this thinking. And of course I'm not just referring to this pkg/acc. issue.

Anyway, that's just my 3c (I'm feeling rather munificent this morning ) I hope it's helpful.

Quote:

PeaceLoveAndHappiness

And a BabbaBooey to y'all!

07-24-2008, 02:14 PM

Jack - how funny about BidMagic - we "DID" use to use that before this - so perhaps that's why we're so upset about not having that feature. It just made life so much easier when you can automatically add those french fries to every burger sale.